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Ever notice how some copy just flows while other copy feels like it’s fighting you every step of the way? This week on the podcast, I sat down with Nikki Rausch, CEO of Sales Maven, to discover how we can use NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) techniques to write more engaging copy that converts. Whether you’re writing emails, social posts, or sales pages, Nikki shares actionable tips to help you connect with your readers and move them to action.
Using NLP Techniques to Write More Effective Marketing Copy
Want to write copy that actually converts? Here’s the problem: most marketers focus so much on what they want to say that they forget how their audience processes information. But by using some key techniques from neuro-linguistic programming (NLP), you can create more engaging copy that resonates with readers and drives action.
Write for Scanners, Not Readers
Here’s a reality check: about 80% of people scan content rather than reading it word for word. That means those large blocks of text you’re writing? They’re probably getting ignored.
To write more effective copy:
- Break up content with white space
- Use bullet points for key ideas
- Bold important phrases and concepts
- Start new paragraphs whenever you change context
- Break up multi-idea sentences into lists
The goal isn’t just to make your copy look pretty – it’s to make it easy for your audience to extract value quickly.
Balance Your Motivational Language
People are motivated in different ways. Some are drawn toward positive outcomes (achieving goals, winning, excelling), while others are motivated away from negative outcomes (avoiding mistakes, preventing problems). Most copywriting advice focuses heavily on pain points, but this can actually turn off readers who respond better to achievement-focused language.
The solution? Mix your messaging. If you’re writing bullet points about your offer’s benefits, make sure some focus on gains (“increase your close rate to 75%”) while others address pain points (“stop wasting time on prospects who won’t buy”). This balanced approach helps you connect with both types of readers.
Ask Questions First, Share Information Second
Want to instantly make your copy more engaging? Start with questions instead of statements. Our brains are wired like Google – they automatically try to answer questions. It’s called instinctive elaboration.
Instead of writing a social media post that shares your news and ends with a question, flip the structure. Ask your question first, leave some white space, then share your information. This engages your reader’s brain from the start and makes them more interested in your answer.
Write to One Person, Not Everyone
One of the biggest copywriting mistakes? Writing as though you’re addressing a crowd. Think about it – when was the last time you read a sales page or marketing email as part of a group? We consume content as individuals, so write to an individual.
This means:
- Avoiding phrases like “hey everyone” or “thanks to all of you”
- Removing collective language that creates distance
- Making your copy feel like a one-on-one conversation
- Writing in a more personal, direct style
Replace “If” with “When”
Here’s a controversial tip: the word “if” might be killing your conversions. “If” introduces doubt and makes readers pause to question themselves. Instead, use “when” to create a sense of inevitability and confidence.
For example, rather than writing “if you’re ready to increase your sales,” write “when you’re ready to increase your sales.” This subtle shift makes your offer feel more achievable and natural.
Focus on Your Reader, Not Yourself
Many marketers write from their own perspective, using phrases like “I want to tell you about” or “I know you’ll love this.” But your readers don’t care what you want – they care about what’s in it for them.
Instead of writing from your perspective:
- Ask questions that engage your reader
- Focus on their needs and interests
- Remove unnecessary “I” statements
- Make the copy about their journey, not yours
Remember, effective copy isn’t about showing how smart or knowledgeable you are – it’s about creating a connection with your reader and guiding them toward action.
By incorporating these NLP copywriting techniques into your marketing, you’ll create more engaging content that resonates with your audience and drives better results. The key is to focus less on what you want to say and more on how your audience will receive and process your message.
What’s your next piece of copy that needs work? Try applying these techniques and watch your engagement improve.
NLP Copywriting Tips to Boost Conversions Episode Transcript
Rich: My next guest is the CEO of Sales Maven, and has the unique ability to transform the misunderstand process of selling. With over 25 years of selling experience, entrepreneurs and small business owners now hire her to show them how to sell successfully and authentically.
She’s written three books, all available on Amazon, and she has a podcast called, Sales Maven, which you can find on your favorite podcasting platform, at the same time you’re subscribing to the Agents of Change podcast, if you haven’t already done so.
I’m very excited to be talking about copywriting with Nikki Rausch. Nikki, welcome to the podcast.
Nikki: Thank you. I’m delighted to be here with you.
Rich: So I know that you’re a big fan of using NLP, neuro linguistic programming in your copywriting. For those people not familiar with NLP, can you just give us the 101?
Nikki: Yes. So NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming, so the neuro part is the way we process information in our brains. Linguistics is language, right? So how you speak to others, how you write, the words you choose, any kind of internal dialogue you have going on, how others speak to you, all the language stuff. And then the programming is about habits and patterns.
And how I apply it to my business, and frankly, into all areas of my life, is that when you learn how to add some flexibility to your normal patterns and you’re able to pay attention to the person you’re in conversation with the person that you’re trying to engage in a conversation, you’re able to adjust your style a little bit, add some flexibility to it. So the big, overarching, simplest way is to say it’s the study of communication. And the way that I approach it is it’s about adding flexibility to your behavior to put the other person at ease and to make the conversation flow more smoothly.
Rich: If I don’t know about NLP and I hear you say that, I’m like of course I’m going to adjust the way I talk to somebody based on how they respond. But it seems to me that NLP takes things to another level.
Can you give us some examples of how you might use NLP to alter a conversation or just be able to provide better communication between two people?
Nikki: Yeah, so from a live conversation, one of the ways that you can adjust is to pay attention to the other person’s rate of speech, for instance. So we all are on a spectrum, right?
Like zero to 10, 10 is a super-fast talker, somebody who doesn’t really even take breaths between their sentences. Those people process fast, they speak fast. And wherever you fall on the spectrum, you are perfect. And when you meet somebody who is on a very different side of the spectrum, whatever their number is, their rate of speech that’s different than you, it can be hard to be in conversation.
Sometimes when you’re talking to a fast talker, they interrupt, they speak over you, they’re hard to pick up everything they’re saying. On the flip side, if you’re a fast talker and you’re talking to somebody who has a slower rate of speech, it can be difficult to have a conversation.
And so when you’re willing to adjust just a little bit, you don’t have to adjust a hundred percent. Let’s say you’re talking to somebody and they’re an eight and you’re a three on rate of speech. You don’t have to get to an eight, but if you pull yourself and go a little bit faster and go to a five, five and a half, what will happen is it will make the conversation flow more smoothly for the other person. And they’ll start making adjustments to you as well.
So then we find a happy medium where it’s easier for us to be in conversation. And when it’s easier to be in conversation, what happens is people are more apt to want to hear what it is that you’re going to say. They’re also more apt from a sales perspective of how to be, they’re more forthcoming about how to earn their business. So it gives you a lot of information. So that’s like an in-person conversation.
Now in a written conversation with somebody, one of the ways to adjust is to pay attention to their word choice, but also are they the kind of person that they give you short answers like, ‘yes’, ‘agreed’, or ‘no’. Then if you are the kind of person that like, I’ve got to add all the flowery language and I’ve got to make these really long paragraphs, they’re not going to like, that’s a disconnect. That’s like a mismatch. So be willing to… you don’t have to just say ‘no’ to somebody that likes these short little answers. You might say ‘no’ but have a short sentence of an explanation around it. But not a paragraph, because then that’s a mismatch.
Rich: So it sounds like part of this is meeting people where they are or meeting people halfway in their style. But of course, we’re also talking about copywriting, where we don’t know if they’re a short talker or a long talker. How can you take some of those concepts from NLP and apply it to effective copywriting?
Nikki: There’s a couple things. One is that it’s important to know that most people scan messages. I think there’s a statistic out there that says like 80 percent of all messages are scanned. So whether you’re writing the whole thing…
Rich: Yeah, I didn’t read the whole thing, so…
Nikki: I love that response. Okay. So if you’re writing copy, whether it’s for a sales page or an email, know that people are probably going to scan it. So that means big, long chunks of blocks of words, paragraphs aren’t going to be as effective as if you start to break things up. So every time you change context, there should be some white space.
If you really want things to pop off the page, there should be bold, there should be bullet points. Instead of writing a sentence that has three or four ideas in it, that should be in a bulleted list. Because again, it makes it easier for the reader to scan, and that’s who you’re writing the copy for. You’re not writing it for you.
So that’s one idea. You tell me how many more you want me to go because I’ve got a well.
Rich: I think we literally could just spend the entire time on each one of these, because I think this is brilliant. From a designer standpoint, not that I’m a great designer, but I understand and appreciate white space. And I was about to ask, but how is this if we’re breaking things up, then we’re just writing for one type of person. But then you reminded me that we’re talking about scanners. So people are going to cut through the chase at their own pace. And so that kind of helps no matter whether somebody digests information quickly or slowly, that at least we’re making it easy for them to digest whatever their speed or approach may be. Is that correct?
Nikki: Yeah. Like the person who’s really analytical that likes all the words and wants to read everything. It’s not that you don’t put that in the copy, but you don’t bold the whole sentence. Maybe you just bold the key phrases or the key words that you want to pop in that particular bulleted point. That is for the scanner. That’s for the person who’s more of a fast thinker, fast talker. , just give me the information, just the facts, don’t want the story.
Now some people want story. And this is why you can put in your copy, you can write some story, you can change the font a little bit. But these are to catch their eye. Those people are going to go through every word, and they’ll love the words. They’ll love the story in the copy. But the person who their style is just the facts, just give me the basics, how do I sign up or how do I say no to this? They just want the information, so make it super easy for them to pull it out.
Rich: All right. You said you got a bunch of these. I wouldn’t mind hearing a couple more examples for sure.
Nikki: Okay. So here’s another that’s about style, and this I think will speak to what you asked me here of you don’t know what people’s styles are, for instance.
So there’s this concept of what are people motivated by. And again, everything I’m going to talk about usually falls on a spectrum. So some of us are more motivated towards something like we want to win. We want to excel. We want to be the fastest in the race. We want to come in first. Others of us are more motivated by what they call ‘away from strategies’. Those are the people who don’t want bad things to happen. They don’t want the dog to bite them. So they’ll run faster than if they’re running a race to try to win first, right? They want to avoid mistakes. They want to avoid having anything negative happen.
So when you’re writing copy, you don’t always know, are you writing it for the toward people or the away from? So you need to change up your language a little bit. So for instance, I mentioned bullet points. If all of your bullet points are toward language, a lot of times people who have a high away from strategy, it’ll feel like you’re not even speaking to me like this doesn’t resonate with me. So I always say I tend to be more toward, that’s my more common modality. And so I know that it’s easier for me to write towards type messaging.
So a lot of times if I write five bullet points, I’ll go back and go, okay, so I’ve got five bullet points here. At least two of them need to have an away from type message. So instead I might say the advantage of the sales training is it’s going to increase your close rate to 75 percent or more. That’s a toward type statement. Now, if I want to change it up and make it an away from strategy that I would change it and say, the advantage of this sales training is that you’ll no longer be wasting your time on people who aren’t going to buy from you and therefore missing out on business, right?
That wasn’t a very good sentence, the way I just structured it, but it’s this idea of, are you writing for toward or away from. And realistically in your copy, if you only write toward statements or only write away from strategies, what will happen is you’ll attract a lot of those types of clients, and it won’t give you this good mix. And you’re limiting your buyer pool by doing that.
Rich: It’s interesting because so often I’ve heard that, and in books like Influences, Psychology, and Persuasion, they talk about how people are more motivated by negative emotions than by positive emotions, so a lot of the copywriting advice is always about dangling that negative thing to avoid.
But if I’m hearing you correctly, yes, that’s fine. But if you’ve got three bullet points, at least one should be also reinforcing some positive things for the people who sort their lives that way instead.
Nikki: Yes. A hundred percent. I know for me, and you’re so right, that a lot of the copy, a lot of the marketing materials out there are really written from the…. and we hear this all the time. People are like, focus on the pain points. I will say, if you send me something that’s full of focusing on my pain points, I will shut down. Because I have a very toward type strategy, it will feel very negative. It will feel either a little bit shaming to me or it’ll feel like this person just doesn’t get me. So I’m not going to work with this person. I’m not going to buy their product. I’m not going to buy their service. It’s just counterintuitive to me.
So I know that and I’m willing to be flexible again, in my own strategy, to attract more of the ideal client. Because just because I like towards doesn’t mean I can’t speak to the away from clients or that I can’t help them as well. So if you want to expand your buyer pool, you want to mix it up a little bit.
Rich: Just thinking about this right now, but it would be a fun experiment to run where you do two Meta ads or Google ads, one that uses towards language, one that uses away language, and then you send them to landing pages that reflect that. So you would automatically attract the right type of person and reinforce that type of either towards or away language, and possibly increase your conversion rates. Definitely something that would be fun to play with.
Nikki: Yeah, it would be fun to play with that. Now, I would say please then do a third option, which is a little mixture of some toward and away from, because again, it’s a spectrum of where people fall.
So I’m not a hundred percent anti away from, so you can give me some away from. I want to avoid mistakes, too. And see which one converts the best for you. I would say do three. We need an A,B,C.
Rich: Chocolate, vanilla, and then a twist. Okay.
Nikki: Yeah, exactly.
Rich: So we touched on this in some of your previous answers, but what do you see as some of the common mistakes that marketers are making with writing copy, and how might they avoid those using some of the NLP techniques that you have in your toolbox?
Nikki: I’m going to say the biggest one is this idea of we write from our perspective. And so we have a thought and then we write it down, which totally makes sense, of course But we don’t think about, oftentimes I find with copywriters they’re not thinking about the reader And how is this going to land to them?
And so when we have thoughts and we write it from our perspective, we use a lot of ‘I’ statements. I want this for you. I want to tell you about this thing. I wish that you knew this, or I know. This is all ‘me’ language. This is from my thought process. But to somebody who doesn’t have a lot of rapport with me, or frankly, it would be like, I really don’t care what Nikki wants. I really don’t care what she wishes, and she doesn’t really know me. So how could she know what I know?
So we got to get more of these ‘I’ statements out of our messaging because it can be, again, it doesn’t really feel like you’re speaking to the reader. It’s more of like I’m talking at them. And I want from a sales perspective for people to learn how to talk with the reader. So it should feel conversational.
So for instance, in saying, “I want to tell you about this, blah, blah, blah, that’s going on.” You can change that up and say, “Would you be interested to learn about X, Y, Z?” Now to the reader, it’s like you’re asking them a question, their brain is engaged and they’re making some decisions and they’re like actually engaged in the copy.
Now whether or not they respond to it in a physical response to you, I’m like, oh, I’m going to respond to Rich’s email and say this, that may or may not happen. And yeah, however, their brain is wired to do that. So we want to be asking questions versus making a lot of ‘I’ statements. It’s just not interesting to the reader.
Rich: So that kind of leads into the next question I wanted to ask you. Which is, we started off by talking about how to have a conversation with somebody and use NLP, but we segued into writing copy. But we still want to keep this conversation, we still want to keep this copy, feeling conversational and engaging, especially on social media, but really on any platform. How do we use some of these techniques to make it feel like it’s conversational rather than we’re just talking at someone?
Nikki: One of the ways to do it, so this is a common mistake that happens and people do it, but they just do it in reverse. So they’ll write out something on social media about some exciting thing they have going on. And at the bottom, they’ll ask a question. You actually should flip that. You should ask the person the question first, before you give the answer.
So for instance, this is just random, but you might say, “What is the most exciting thing going on in your life right now?” Then you leave some white space and then you can give them your answer. “Here’s something exciting going on in my life”, or “Here’s what’s going on in the business, I’m super excited to talk about it”.
By asking the question first, their brain is engaged. They want to answer. And not only because again, whether they actually type in the comments and give you an answer, their brain is wired to answer. It’s called instinctive elaboration. Our brains are wired for questions. We want to answer them. I would say it’s like our brains are like Google. If you go to Google right now and you type in anything, Google’s trying to give you answers. It doesn’t mean it’s giving you the best answers, but at least it’s attempting.
And your brain is the same way, but it has to be asked a question first. So instead of putting your questions at the bottom of your post, put it at the beginning. And then when somebody answers the question for their own brain and in their own mind, they’re more interested to now read your answer.
Rich: Okay. All right. So we’re priming the pump, so to speak.
Nikki: Yeah. Exactly.
Rich: All right. Are there any magic words in NLP that tend to act as psychological triggers that get people to engage or to take action?
Nikki: One is what’s known as an ‘embedded command’. And so at the end of a statement you don’t just put ‘sign up’, you put ‘sign up now’. Now is I’m saying do this right now, so it’s an embedded command. So embedded commands are really something you can work in. And you don’t use them in every single sentence. But if you work them into your copy, ‘sign up now’, or ‘is this something you’d like to chat about now’? Or ‘is this something we can talk about today’? It’s giving more of this is a concrete question, or do this now, versus sign up or click here now, it’s a more NLP okay, take action.
Rich: So flipping that on his head, are there certain words that we should avoid using because they immediately get people to close their wallet, go to another webpage, whatever it may be?
Nikki: Okay. So this one will be very controversial, I think, with copywriters, because I feel like they love the one I’m going to say, and I’m going to encourage you to limit it. And it’s the word ‘if’.
So if you want to have XYZ happen in your life, if you’re looking to do, ABC, they love ‘if’s. But the thing about ‘if’ is it’s essentially saying to the brain, Hey, slow down. Think about it. You sure? Are you sure you want to keep going? Are you sure you want to read? Are you sure you want to sign up?
So instead of using ‘if’ statements, I always say use when you’re ready for blah, blah, blah. When you’re feeling like this, when you. So get some of these if statements out of your copy. You don’t need, if it’s way overused, it’s super common. And so when you can use something like ‘when’, it already sets you apart from all the other copy they’ve read that day or that week or that month. So you want to stand out and be a little bit different, get rid of ‘if’.
Rich: I like that. It also takes some of the doubt out of it. Because ‘if’ is a very questionable statement and ‘when’ is inevitable.
Nikki: Yeah. When is now, let’s go.
Rich: And when you add the word ‘now’ in there, then we know when it is.
Nikki: That’s right. Exactly. You got it.
Rich: So one of the challenges I think a lot of business owners, marketers, and copywriters have is writing to multiple audiences, because you never know who’s going to show up on your website or see your social posts. How can we tailor the language to resonate with different audiences?
Like how can I write some copy that maybe you would resonate with? Should I write copy that resonates with just business owners versus a director of marketing? Or is there a way of using NLP and some of your techniques to be able to write where both of those parties feel like they’re being spoken to?
Nikki: I would say do it in the form of a bullet point, like a bullet, like “this program is for you when…”. And then you could speak directly to your marketing director, your business owner, you could give some qualifiers in there that would help speak to a broader audience.
Now, one of the things I want to point out here, and this is a common mistake that happens with copy. And again, because we’re writing, we know multiple people are going to see this and read it. So we write as if we’re talking to everyone. And so we use frames like, “Hey everybody, thanks for being here. I’m so glad you’re all reading this.”
But the thing about it is, I don’t know about you, you can tell me if this is true or not, but when’s the last time you ever read a sales page in a group setting or an email in a group setting? We don’t. We read things as individuals. So make sure that your copy is talking to a person. It doesn’t have to be so specific that you’re saying, “Hey you, marketing director”. I don’t mean that. But no, “Hey, all you marketing directors”. No, because they’re not reading it as a group. There’s no group sitting around reading your copy.
Rich: It’s interesting that you say that. Because for years on my podcast, I would open up with something to say, “Welcome everyone to another episode of …”, and I heard, I want to say it was Chris Brogan who said, never talk to everybody, only talk to one person. Same idea that you were having. So I don’t want anybody to go back and fact check me on this, but I think for several years now I just say, “Welcome to another episode of The Agents of Change podcast.”
Nikki: It’s hard not to because you are thinking about the audience. And so I get that. And again, this is about just making tiny tweaks to the things that are so common that will set you apart. Because your listener wants to feel valued and, “Oh, Rich is talking to me.” Because the thing I always say is, when you talk to everybody you talk to no one, because it’s so easy to ignore.
I don’t know about you, but they don’t do this so much anymore, but for a long time on social media you would get put into these group DMS or group messages. And it’s so easy to just leave the group or go that’s not for me, because there’s 80 people on this list that’s getting this so that doesn’t feel personalized. But when somebody sends you a personalized message like, “Hey Nikki’ or “Hey Rich”, you kind of feel somewhat compelled to respond because it’s personalized. So just like on your podcast, speak to A listener, not THE listener, and that’s enough. Because it feels like to the person listening right now, oh, he’s talking to me.
Rich: That makes a lot of sense. And that one person at home who’s listening right now, we’re talking to you.
Coming from a person who is responsible for the sales in their company – me – a lot of it is creating content that is engaging, but then getting somebody to send me an email, to pick up the phone and call me to have that conversation. Do you have strategies that can help us transition prospects from that written content to more of a live conversation?
Nikki: Yeah, so one of the ways to do that is to make it really easy for that person to take some kind of an action. One of the ways you make it easy for someone to take action is you ask a very specific question.
Would you like to schedule a time to chat? That’s one. It’s pretty direct, right? And when you ask that question, you want to make sure you make it so easy for them to take action. If I’m sending an email to an individual person and I say, “Would you like to schedule a time to chat more about this?”, I then give three options of times and their ranges of time. So I’ll say, “In case you like this idea, here are a few possible times. Please pick a time that works best in your schedule”. And then I would say, “Monday, anytime between 9am and 11am Mountain time. If I know their time zone, I’m going to put their time zone. If I don’t, I’ll put mine. And then by giving these three times, you’re just making it really easy for them to go, oh, okay. I can now look at this and go, yeah, I can meet with you on Monday at 10:30, versus the person that says, “Hey let me know when you’re available and we’ll schedule a time to chat.”
I don’t know about you, but I live and breathe my calendar. If you say to me, let me know when you’re available, my answer is I’m never available. Because if it’s not on my calendar, it doesn’t exist in my world. But if you make it easy to get on my calendar.
And the pushback I get when I say this, like three times languages, people like I have a better solution, Nikki, because I use a calendar link. Good for you. That’s awesome. I love a calendar link. And if you’re sending it out to your whole email list, a calendar link might make sense. But if you’re willing to take the time to show that you’ll do the work and put some possible times in there and then give the calendar link, and if you prefer a different time, here’s a link where you can find a time that works best for you, the reader, the person I’m asking to take some kind of action. That actually works really well.
Most of the time people say, “Here are times I’m available, please pick a time that works in my schedule” That’s now about me, the seller. It’s actually not their job to make it easy for me to earn their business. It’s my job to earn the business. Therefore I need to do the work as the seller.
Rich: Makes sense. Nikki, we’ve talked about a lot of interesting ways that we can implement NLP into our copywriting to have more effective copywriting. What is one NLP technique that we haven’t discussed yet today that listeners could implement right away to make their writing more impactful?
Nikki: It really, and we have actually talked about it, but I’m going to say it’s really about asking questions. If you go and look at your copy, and chances are this is going to happen. You’re going to go look at your copy and I want you to count how many sentences you have in the copy. And then I want you to look and go, how many questions do I have in the copy? My guess is you won’t even have one, but you cannot engage the reader without questions. If you are just talking at people, you’re writing statements. If you really want to engage the reader, you have to ask questions. Now you’re talking and it feels more conversational.
Rich: And that makes a lot of sense because as I think back to a hundred years ago when I used to be a sales rep and I would listen to those sales tapes by Brian Tracy in the car, he would say all the time, “Telling is not selling”.
Nikki: That’s right.
Rich: And he would always talk about asking questions and keep on digging deeper and deeper. And it makes sense. And plus, I think most people want to talk about themselves. So then all of a sudden you’re really engaging them in a conversation. So that makes a lot of sense.
Nikki, if people want to learn more or maybe hire you to help them with their own copy, where can we send them?
Nikki: I’m going to wrap it around a gift for your audience, if that’s okay.
Rich: I love it.
Nikki: Okay. So I have an eBook, it’s called, Closing the Sale, and it actually talks through how to have more effective consultation calls. So you can get that by going to yoursalesmaven.com/agents. So this is for your listener specifically. So yoursalesmaven.com/agents, and then you’ll be able to download that, we’ll be connected, and I would be happy to chat with you and talk about ways that we can improve your copy and specifically your sales.
Rich: I will make sure that goes into the show notes and I will be downloading the first copy of it, so thank you very much. Nikki, great chatting with you today. I really appreciate your time.
Nikki: Thank you.
Show Notes:
Nikki Rausch helps business owners sell with confidence and authenticity, while also connecting with their audience and cultivating lasting relationships. She’s the author of three impactful books, and host of Sales Maven podcast. Be sure to connect and follow her for actionable advice on taking the stress out of selling. And don’t forget to download her FREE e-Book.
Rich Brooks is the President of flyte new media, a web design & digital marketing agency in Portland, Maine, and founder of the Agents of Change. He’s passionate about helping small businesses grow online and has put his 25+ years of experience into the book, The Lead Machine: The Small Business Guide to Digital Marketing.